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Episode
The Holderness Family Gets Real About Perimenopause
~87 min
Episode Brief·YouTube

The Holderness Family Gets Real About Perimenopause

Mary Claire Haver
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TL;DR

The four things you'd lose by not watching

4 items

TL;DR

The four things you'd lose by not watching

4 items
1

Perimenopause is a distinct neurological and endocrine phase that often begins in the brain with anxiety, mood changes, and reduced resilience — long before physical symptoms like hot flashes appear. Mary Claire Haver emphasizes that it has been largely ignored in medicine.

2

Kim Holderness describes a harrowing personal journey: panic attacks at a Whole Foods, feeling chased by a bear, and apologizing to her husband until a functional medicine doctor prescribed progesterone and later a psychiatrist helped stabilize her mental health.

3

A history of postpartum depression or anxiety is a strong predictor of a rougher menopause transition. Mary Claire shares how outdated screening — only asking about harming your child — missed her own intrusive thoughts, and how a pediatrician finally flagged her need for help.

4

Mary Claire’s menopause toolkit centers on six pillars: anti-inflammatory nutrition, strength training, sleep protection, personalized pharmacology, stress management, and community. She advocates starting estrogen and progesterone early in perimenopause to support mental health, rather than defaulting solely to antidepressants.

Protocols

Concrete recipes — what, when, how much, and why

3 items

Six-Pillar Menopause Toolkit for Healthspan

WhatA foundational lifestyle framework for thriving in the second half of life: 1) anti-inflammatory nutrition with protein and fiber, 2) movement especially strength training, 3) protecting sleep as the backbone of hormonal and cognitive health, 4) personalized pharmacology with a qualified provider, 5) stress management through mindfulness, gratitude, and progress over perfection, 6) community.
WhenAny time during perimenopause, menopause, or beyond; 'It's never too early or too late.'
DoseNo specific doses; ongoing lifestyle integration.
For whomAll women navigating midlife and menopause.
WhyThese pillars address the root causes of accelerated aging and symptom exacerbation in menopause, focusing on healthspan (quality years) rather than just lifespan.

She presents these pillars as her core clinical philosophy. They are not a quick fix but a comprehensive realignment of daily habits to support the body through estrogen loss. The emphasis on strength training counters the common but ineffective advice to 'eat less, move more.' The inclusion of community reflects the isolation women feel and the power of shared experience, which the Holdernesses model through their content.

Mechanism

Mary Claire explains that aging is inevitable but how you age is malleable. The toolkit targets the systems most impacted by hormonal decline: metabolic health (nutrition, movement), neurological stability (sleep, stress management), and personalized medical support (pharmacology) to maintain function and independence for the next 30 years.

I call it my menopause toolkit and it starts with six foundational pillars. Nutrition focused on anti-inflammatory foods, protein and fiber. Movement especially strength training and daily activity. Protecting your sleep because it is the backbone of your hormonal and cognitive health. Working with a provider on personalized pharmacology, managing stress through mindfulness, gratitude, and embracing progress over perfection. And finally, community, because no one of us should be doing this alone.

Also said
“Aging is inevitable but how you age? That's completely in your hands.”— Empowers agency.
“It's never too early or too late.”— Removes the excuse of 'it's too late for me.'

Early Estrogen/Progesterone for Perimenopausal Mental Health

WhatStart estrogen (and progesterone if uterus is present) as soon as significant perimenopausal mood, anxiety, or cognitive symptoms appear, rather than defaulting to antidepressants alone.
WhenAt onset of perimenopausal mental health changes, ideally before symptoms become severe.
DoseNot specified; 'early, soon, and often' implies timely and consistent dosing under medical supervision.
For whomPerimenopausal women experiencing depression, anxiety, panic, or brain fog.
WhyFluctuating and declining estrogen destabilizes brain neurotransmitters; replacing it can stabilize mood and cognition, potentially reducing the need for psychiatric medication.
CaveatsMay still require concurrent SSRI or SNRI; not a replacement for psychiatric care when needed, but should be first-line hormonal support.

Mary Claire points out that during the menopause transition, the proportion of women needing an SSRI doubles. Historically, clinicians over-prescribed antidepressants without addressing the underlying hormonal chaos. She now advocates a reversed order: stabilize with hormones first, then layer with psychiatric medication if still needed. This is a major shift from the 'suffer through it' or 'it's just aging' narrative. She ties this to the alarming suicide rate.

Mechanism

Estrogen receptors in the brain modulate serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine, and support neuroplasticity and stress resilience. Progesterone metabolites have calming, GABA-like effects. Providing these hormones directly addresses the biological driver of many perimenopausal mental health symptoms.

What we're learning now is we probably should start them early, soon, and often on estrogen, progesterone, whatever combination to stabilize mental health and they may need something an SSRI or SNRI, you know, one of the antidepressant anti-anxiety meds still, but we probably were over-treating with some of these meds when really the what they needed was estrogen.

Also said
“We double the amount of women who need an SSRI and what we're learning now is we probably should start them early, soon, and often on estrogen, progesterone, whatever combination to stabilize mental health.”— Quantifies the increase and the order of intervention.

Perimenopause as Moving Target: Tailor Treatment to Priority Symptoms

WhatApproach perimenopause management by identifying the woman's most disabling symptom at a given moment and adjusting treatment accordingly, because the hormonal fluctuations make it a moving target.
WhenThroughout perimenopause, revisiting frequently.
DoseNot applicable; involves therapeutic pivoting.
For whomPerimenopausal women with fluctuating symptom profiles.
WhyUnlike the stable postmenopausal state, perimenopause symptoms swing unpredictably. Treating a fixed protocol fails; success comes from flexibility and patient-led goals.
CaveatsRequires a clinician willing to adjust regimens often; not every provider is comfortable with this approach.

Mary Claire likens it to 'pinning the tail on a moving donkey.' She contrasts the ease of treating postmenopausal women (once hormones flatline) with the chaotic perimenopausal phase. Her advice is to listen to the woman's top complaint — be it joint pain, bleeding, anxiety — and focus on that, accepting that the target will move. This philosophy emphasizes partnership and adaptability.

Treating a woman in perimenopause is like pinning the tail on a moving donkey. Right. And you know, you get that tail on and the donkey goes over here and then you got to switch this and whatever. Like once they're postmenopausal, it is so much easier for me as a doctor.

Also said
“What I've learned through just taking care of menopause now is like, what are your goals? Yeah. For you, it was mental health, it sounds like.”— Shows the practical application of symptom-led care.

What's new

Personal practice updates, fresh positions, predictions

4 items

perimenopause-as-distinct-brain-first-phase

Perimenopause is not simply 'early menopause' but a unique biological stage that often begins in the brain, causing emotional and cognitive symptoms before any menstrual changes or hot flashes.

Why this matters: Challenges the traditional view that menopause care only starts once periods stop for a year. Mary Claire argues the entire 7-10 year transition has been ignored by medicine.

Background

Historically, clinicians were taught to wait until a woman was one year past her final period before diagnosing menopause and offering treatment. This left perimenopausal women unsupported through severe mood and cognitive fluctuations.

Mary Claire explains that the first harbingers of perimenopause are frequently neurological: anxiety, panic, decreased resilience, and a sense of 'going crazy.' She ties this to Kim's experience of feeling like she was being chased by a bear and having a panic attack over marinara sauce. She stresses that because estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone receptors exist throughout the brain, the hormonal fluctuations of this phase knock out emotional regulation long before any outward physical signs. This framing breaks the silence around early symptoms that women often dismiss as personal failure.

Perimenopause begins in the brain. Yeah. And that resilience change, that mental health, that you know, processing change.

Also said
“Perimenopause is not early menopause. It is its own distinct biological phase, and it has been largely ignored.”— Directly states the medical blind spot.
“Perimenopause often starts quietly. It shows up in the brain first, then the body, then everywhere else.”— Reinforces the brain-first timeline she described earlier.

postpartum-depression-predicts-rougher-menopause

Having a difficult postpartum experience — depression, anxiety, intrusive thoughts — predicts a harder perimenopause transition.

Why this matters: Connects two under-discussed female health crises and suggests a predictive biomarker that clinicians could use for proactive care.

Background

Both postpartum mood disorders and perimenopausal mental health issues were historically dismissed as normal, leaving women untreated. The link between the two was not taught in medical training.

Mary Claire states that if a woman had postpartum depression or anxiety, she is a 'ringer' for having a rougher menopause. She recounts her own intrusive thoughts after childbirth — imagining her baby drowning — that were completely missed by the standard screening question 'Are you thinking about hurting your child?' The medical community’s failure to recognize non-psychotic distress in both periods has systemically undertreated women.

Personal experience

Mary Claire shares that she experienced intrusive thoughts of her daughter drowning, but when asked at her 6-week check-up if she wanted to hurt her children, she answered 'Oh God, no.' The screening failed her.

What we know is if you had a really rough postpartum, like if you had postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, any of that stuff, you are a ringer for having a rougher menopause.

Also said
“I was asked like are you do you have visions of hurting your children? And like, 'Oh God, no.' Like that wasn't it. That's how we were screening.”— Highlights the flawed binary screening that missed her real suffering.

women-underdiagnosed-adhd-in-perimenopause

Women are chronically underdiagnosed with ADHD, and perimenopause often unmasks it because the hormonal shifts erode the coping mechanisms that previously kept it hidden.

Why this matters: Brings together two stigmatized, underdiagnosed conditions that collide in midlife, showing how societal expectation of women's organization skills masks ADHD.

Background

ADHD was historically studied in males; the classic image was the disruptive boy. Girls and women mask symptoms through social conditioning, only breaking down when life demands (like motherhood) exceed their capacity to compensate. Perimenopause then adds cognitive overload.

Mary Claire notes that research on ADHD in women lags because studies predominantly enrolled male participants. Duke University now has a women’s center for ADHD. She connects this to menopause: many women feel like they 'got ADHD' in perimenopause because the drop in estrogen frays the executive function that had been tenuously maintained. She and the Holdernesses discuss the relief of diagnosis and how understanding gives permission to build systems rather than blame oneself.

What we do know is that genetically women are just as likely to have ADHD but they're chronically under diagnosed and we've been you know we get to go to these book signings and we meet we've met so many people and the moms that come and hug Penn for their kids to be seen but they've tears in their eyes because they just got diagnosed.

Also said
“It's really complicated because women are under diagnosed with ADHD like more way more so than my kids both have it. And it's because y'all are tougher than us. You're you're you're better at internalizing your difficulties.”— Explains why diagnosis is delayed.

suicide-peak-at-perimenopause

The highest suicide rate for women occurs between ages 45 and 55, the perimenopausal window.

Why this matters: A stark, rarely cited statistic that frames perimenopause as a life-threatening mental health crisis, not just a nuisance.

Background

Women's mental health in midlife is often attributed to stress, empty nest, or aging, but the biological underpinnings of hormonal fluctuation on mood and resilience are under-recognized.

Mary Claire drops this fact in direct response to Kim's admission of wanting 'out' despite having the life of her dreams. She links the suicide peak directly to perimenopause, emphasizing that this is not random. This framing validates the urgency of hormone-based treatment and comprehensive mental health support, rather than leaving women to 'deal with it.' It also gives weight to her argument for early hormonal intervention.

The most likely time for a woman to commit suicide is between 45 and 55.

Also said
“That feels right. Like that feels awful. There's a reason.”— Kim's visceral reaction underscores how many women resonate with this reality.

Recommendations

Products, supplements, and tools mentioned in the episode

1 item

ADHD is Awesome

Book

Written by guests Kim and Penn Holderness. Mary Claire emotionally endorsed it, saying she sobbed reading it and wished she’d had it as a parent of a child with ADHD.

The book offers a hopeful, destigmatizing message about ADHD, aimed at parents and young adults, but also resonating with women newly diagnosed in midlife. Mary Claire highlights how it gave her insight into her own biases about medication and parenting.

Personal experience

Mary Claire shared that she initially thought medicating her child for ADHD was a cop-out. After her daughter’s teacher recommended testing and she read the Holderness’s book, she cried, realizing she could have been a better resource for her child.

I love your book because as a parent as a doctor I was one of the not naysayers but you know I I really felt like people who would medicate their children with this was a cop out... And reading your book I sobbed because I wish I would have had that as a parent.

Find ADHD
Disclosed sponsorships7speaker disclosed

The New Perimenopause

Book Sponsored · disclosed

Mary Claire’s latest book focusing specifically on the 7-10 year perimenopause transition as a distinct phase with its own symptoms and management strategies.

DisclosureWritten by the host and expert Dr. Mary Claire Haver.

The book argues that perimenopause has been largely ignored, and that women deserve a clear roadmap. It covers how symptoms begin in the brain, what hormonal shifts are happening, and how to advocate for proper care.

My new book, The New Perimenopause, is about the 7 to 10 years before periods stop. A transition that is anything but gentle.

Find The

Midi Health

Service Sponsored · disclosed

Virtual clinic providing personalized menopause care via telehealth, covered by insurance, focusing on healthspan: hormonal optimization, nutrition, resistance training, and targeted therapies.

DisclosureEpisode sponsor; Mary Claire hosts the show and is paid to endorse Midi.

Mary Claire integrates Midi’s model with her own toolkit philosophy, emphasizing that access should not depend on zip code. Midi aims to fill the gap in clinician training on menopause science.

Midi Health is on that same mission delivering the kind of care women have always deserved.

Find Midi

Alloy Health

Service Sponsored · disclosed

Prescription-strength topical skincare formulated with estriol (M4 line) to address hormonal skin aging: face cream, serum, eye cream.

DisclosureEpisode sponsor.

Alloy's M4 line includes the M4 face cream, M4 face serum, and M4 eye cream. These are prescription strength formulas made with estriol, the gold standard hormone your body stops producing naturally.

Find Alloy

Ogee Crystal Contour Collection

Product Sponsored · disclosed

Certified organic makeup sticks (copper, rose quartz, opal) formulated with 90% skincare ingredients like green coffee oil and elderberry, intended for a lightweight natural look.

DisclosureEpisode sponsor; discount code 'unpaused' offered.

Their crystal contour collection flips the script on traditional makeup. Instead of being mostly pigment and filler, it's made with nearly 90% skin care ingredients.

Find Ogee

Primally Pure Soothing Collection

Product Sponsored · disclosed

Blue tansy-based skincare (deodorant, serum, body oil) designed to calm inflammation and sensitive skin.

DisclosureEpisode sponsor; discount code 'unpaused' offered.

Primally Pure's blue tansy products are designed to calm stressed skin using real biocompatible ingredients that work with your body, not against it.

Find Primally

L'ange Aeria Halo Ring Hair Dryer

Product Sponsored · disclosed

Lightweight hair dryer designed to dry hair quickly, paired with Gloss Shock anti-frizz treatment.

DisclosureEpisode sponsor; discount code 'unpaused' offered.

Their Aeria Halo Ring hair dryer is built to be lightweight, so it feels comfortable to use from the start to finish. And it is designed to dry hair quickly, helping streamline busy mornings without sacrificing results.

Find L'ange

Pura Scent Collection

Product Sponsored · disclosed

Seasonal home fragrance inspired by memory and destination, designed to transport through scent.

DisclosureEpisode sponsor.

Each scent is inspired by memory and destination from lavender fields in bloom to coastal mornings under soft sunlight.

Find Pura

Notable quotes

Lines worth pulling out — contrarian, specific, or perfectly phrased

6 items
I'm coming home. I'm leaving my grocery cart in aisle three.
Kim’s vivid, relatable description of a panic attack triggered by nothing, illustrating the abrupt loss of emotional capacity in perimenopause.
Everything like felt like I was being chased by a bear and I really thought something was wrong with me.
Captures the constant fight-or-flight state many perimenopausal women experience before understanding it as hormonal.
Perry's here, huh?
Penn's gentle, humorous naming of Kim's perimenopause persona—a shorthand that diffuses tension and creates connection.
The most likely time for a woman to commit suicide is between 45 and 55.
A chilling, hard-hitting data point that reframes perimenopause as a life-or-death window, not a trivial transition.
Treating a woman in perimenopause is like pinning the tail on a moving donkey.
Mary Claire’s colorful analogy for the clinical challenge of managing wildly fluctuating hormones.
If you had a really rough postpartum, like if you had postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, any of that stuff, you are a ringer for having a rougher menopause.
A clinically predictive link that few women know and that could change how they prepare for midlife.

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Topics covered

perimenopausemental-healthpostpartum-mental-healthadhdmenopause-toolkithormone-therapymarriage-during-menopausewomens-health-disparitiesscreening-failuressuicide-in-perimenopausebook-the-new-perimenopausebook-adhd-is-awesomemidi-healthhealthspanestrogen-brain-connectionconversation-cardscontent-creation-family
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