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Episode
345 ‒ Chronic pain: pathways, treatment, and the path to physical and psychological recovery
~208 min
Episode Brief·YouTube

345 ‒ Chronic pain: pathways, treatment, and the path to physical and psychological recovery

Peter Attia
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TL;DR

The four things you'd lose by not watching

4 items

TL;DR

The four things you'd lose by not watching

4 items
1

Pain is a biopsychosocial experience, not a simple signal from body to brain; nociception and pain perception are distinct, and consciousness is required for pain.

2

Low-dose naltrexone (LDN) at 4.5 mg is a safe, inexpensive, and potentially powerful treatment for chronic pain conditions like fibromyalgia and CRPS, likely by reducing neuroinflammation.

3

Opioid prescribing was a perfect storm of overmarketing, poor training, and systemic pressures; individual psychological factors like pre-operative self-loathing strongly predict persistent opioid use.

4

Self-efficacy and understanding one's pain condition are critical for recovery; Sean Mackey's own cluster headaches and Peter Attia's back pain story illustrate how breaking the catastrophizing cycle enables rehabilitation.

Protocols

Concrete recipes — what, when, how much, and why

8 items

Low-Dose Naltrexone (LDN) Protocol

WhatTake 4.5 mg of naltrexone orally, typically at bedtime, for chronic pain conditions.
WhenDaily, usually at night; if it causes activation, switch to morning.
Dose4.5 mg (can titrate up to 9 mg or higher if needed); ongoing.
For whomPatients with fibromyalgia, complex regional pain syndrome, central neuropathic pain, and possibly other neuroinflammatory conditions.
WhyBlocks TLR4 on microglia, reducing central neuroinflammation that amplifies pain.
CaveatsMay cause vivid dreams (20-30% of patients); if activating, take in the morning. Extremely safe, no lethal dose, but long-term effects in pain populations still being studied. Requires compounding pharmacy.

Mackey explains that the 4.5 mg dose was derived from animal studies by Watkins and Hutchinson, converting mg/kg to a 70 kg human. He has seen dramatic results in fibromyalgia and CRPS, and shares an anecdote of a stroke patient with central pain who not only had pain relief but regained speech after years. He acknowledges the controversy with Dan Clauw, who believes the mechanism is opioid receptor antagonism resetting the endogenous opioid system. Mackey finds the neuroinflammation model more compelling given LDN's benefits in MS and ulcerative colitis. He emphasizes the drug's remarkable safety profile, with decades of use at 50 mg for addiction showing no lethal dose. The main side effect is vivid, colorful dreams. He typically starts at 4.5 mg at night, and if patients feel activated, he moves it to morning. He has gone up to 13.5 mg in the stroke case. Cost is about $30/month from compounding pharmacies like Belmar.

Mechanism

At low doses, naltrexone antagonizes toll-like receptor 4 (TLR4) on microglia, the immune cells of the CNS. In chronic pain, microglia become activated and release pro-inflammatory cytokines that sensitize pain pathways. By blocking TLR4, LDN reduces this neuroinflammatory soup, thereby turning down the central amplification of pain. Some researchers argue it may instead work by resetting endogenous opioid tone.

Personal experience

I use more and more and more because of its safety profile and its potential for getting me a home run. ... I trial him on four and a half milligrams of LDN. He goes away. He comes back a couple months later. Pain has improved. But not only that, he's now speaking...

I give it in four and a half milligrams. ... In some patients, Peter, this drug's been magical.

Also said
“the only side effects that I've typically I see 20 30% of people get vivid dreams they get technicolor dreams not bad dreams”— Details side effects.
“It usually runs about $30 a month. So it's basically a free drug.”— Cost.
“we get our stuff out of Balmar Pharmacy in Colorado. ... they've got good customer service. They take patients credit cards over the phone and they will ship it to you immediately”— Practical sourcing.

Gabapentin Titration for Neuropathic Pain

WhatStart gabapentin at 300 mg three times daily, titrate up to a maximum of 3600 mg/day, with a higher dose at night for sleep.
WhenFor neuropathic pain; dose during the day lower, higher at bedtime.
Dose300-600 mg TID, max 3600 mg/day (due to saturable absorption, single doses >900-1000 mg are not absorbed).
For whomPatients with neuropathic pain (burning, shooting, lancinating), such as diabetic neuropathy, post-herpetic neuralgia, radiculopathy.
WhyGabapentin binds the alpha-2-delta subunit of voltage-gated calcium channels in the spinal cord and brain, reducing neurotransmitter release and pain signal transmission.
CaveatsSedation, dizziness, risk of falls in elderly, peripheral edema, weight gain. No lethal dose, but can impair driving. Avoid abrupt discontinuation.

Mackey explains that gabapentin is a lousy anti-seizure drug but a good neuropathic pain drug. Its absorption is saturable due to an active transport system in the small intestine; taking more than 900-1000 mg at once results in the excess being excreted. Therefore, he often prescribes 300 mg in the morning and afternoon, and 600 mg at night to aid sleep. If a patient maxes out on gabapentin but still has benefit, he switches to pregabalin, which has linear kinetics and can be dosed higher. He notes the drug's popularity surged after an episode of ER where George Clooney's character used it. He warns about sedation and fall risk, especially in the elderly, and mentions that both drugs can cause weight gain and edema. He shares that Peter Attia took 4 grams/day during his recovery and was very drowsy.

Mechanism

Gabapentin and pregabalin act on the alpha-2-delta subunit of presynaptic calcium channels, reducing calcium influx and thereby decreasing the release of excitatory neurotransmitters like glutamate and substance P. This turns down the volume on pain signals being processed in the spinal cord and brain. They do not directly affect peripheral nerves.

the beauty of neurontin or gabapentin and its um cousin pregablin ... both have the same mechanism of action they work on the alpha 2 delta subunit a calcium channel in the spinal cord in the brain. ... think of them as agents that turn down uh the signals that are heading out

Also said
“there's no lethal dose. Like the only way they could kill the rats when they were studying it was to drown them in it.”— Safety.
“once you take more than about a th00and milligrams, the rest of it just passed out your backside.”— Dosing limit.

Tricyclic Antidepressant Selection for Pain

WhatUse low-dose tricyclic antidepressants (amitriptyline, nortriptyline, or desipramine) for neuropathic pain, choosing based on side effect profile.
WhenTypically at night for amitriptyline (sedating), or daytime for desipramine (less sedating).
DoseStart low (e.g., 10-25 mg) and titrate; can monitor blood levels for nortriptyline.
For whomPatients with neuropathic pain, especially those with sleep disturbance (amitriptyline) or who cannot tolerate sedation (desipramine).
WhyTCAs increase serotonin and norepinephrine, enhancing descending pain inhibition, and also block sodium channels, stabilizing nerve membranes.
CaveatsAmitriptyline: sedation, weight gain, urinary retention (avoid in older men with BPH), orthostatic hypotension. Desipramine: less sedation but can cause insomnia. All TCAs can cause cardiac conduction delays at high doses.

Mackey emphasizes that these drugs are not FDA-approved for pain because they are off-patent, so no company will fund the trials. He uses them extensively, tailoring the choice to the patient. Amitriptyline is his go-to when sedation and sleep improvement are needed, but he avoids it in patients prone to weight gain or urinary issues. He shares a personal embarrassment: he once prescribed amitriptyline to a young woman concerned about weight, and she gained 10-20 pounds. Desipramine and nortriptyline are less sedating and have fewer anticholinergic effects. He notes that the analgesic effect is independent of mood effects, so he counsels patients that they are not being treated for depression. Blood level monitoring is possible for nortriptyline to ensure therapeutic range.

Mechanism

TCAs inhibit reuptake of serotonin and norepinephrine, boosting the descending inhibitory pathways from the brainstem (rostral ventromedial medulla) that suppress pain signals at the spinal cord. Additionally, they are potent sodium channel blockers, which reduces ectopic firing in injured nerves. This dual action makes them effective for neuropathic pain even at doses lower than those used for depression.

Personal experience

I learned my lessons. I haven't I haven't run that experiment. ... I typically use the amitryptalene when I need some sedating help at night for sleep and pain

these are incredibly effective agents, not necessarily for their anti-depressive properties. They frequently work through modulating a couple neurotransmitters, serotonin and norepinephrine.

Also said
“the older dirty drugs of the triccyclic anti-depressants ... hit the serotonin and norepinephrine systems and then they also happen to be pretty potent sodium channel blockers.”— Mechanism.
“they were never FDA approved. Why were they not FDA approved? Because they're off patent. There's no money to be made.”— Explains lack of formal indication.

Baclofen for Acute Muscle Spasm

WhatTake baclofen 20 mg two to three times daily for acute muscle-related back or neck pain.
WhenAt the onset of muscle spasm, such as after sleeping wrong or prolonged sitting; for 2-3 days up to a few weeks.
Dose20 mg BID-TID, up to 80 mg/day; short-term use typically.
For whomIndividuals with acute musculoskeletal pain accompanied by muscle spasm, e.g., trapezius or quadratus lumborum spasm.
WhyBaclofen is a safe, non-habit-forming muscle relaxant that reduces spasm and associated pain.
CaveatsSedation, dose-dependent; not typically effective for chronic pain. Avoid abrupt discontinuation after long-term use. Not habit-forming like carisoprodol (Soma).

Peter Attia shares his personal use of baclofen 20 mg twice daily for a few days when he gets a kink in his trap or QL flare-up, combined with an NSAID. Mackey agrees that baclofen is one of the safest muscle relaxants, non-habit-forming unlike Soma (carisoprodol) which has barbiturate-like properties. He notes that flexeril (cyclobenzaprine) has tricyclic-like effects and can cause sedation. Baclofen is also used intrathecally via implanted pumps for severe spasticity from spinal cord injury. For oral use, he is comfortable with long-term use if the patient benefits, but typically uses it for acute/subacute episodes and reassesses. He emphasizes that muscle relaxants generally lack strong evidence for chronic pain.

Mechanism

Baclofen is a GABA-B agonist that inhibits monosynaptic and polysynaptic reflexes at the spinal cord level, reducing muscle spasticity and spasm.

Personal experience

I'm comfortable with a person being on back in all their life to be. ... everything I'm doing is taken in the context of the person in front of me

blephin is one of the safest to use. It is not habit forming like the somas.

Also said
“we can use blephin intratheally. We put inthecal pumps for blephin. Uh this is a beautiful lifesaving minimal surgery that we do um for people with a spinal cord injury, intractable spasticity”— Shows versatility.

Acetaminophen-Ibuprofen Combination for Acute Pain

WhatCombine 400 mg ibuprofen with 500 mg acetaminophen, three times daily, for acute nociceptive pain.
WhenFor acute pain (dental, musculoskeletal) for up to 1-2 weeks.
DoseIbuprofen 400 mg + acetaminophen 500 mg, TID; with food and water.
For whomAdults with acute nociceptive pain, no contraindications to NSAIDs or acetaminophen.
WhySynergistic analgesia via different mechanisms allows lower doses of each, reducing side effects.
CaveatsAvoid in kidney disease, liver disease, GI ulcers, or with heavy alcohol use. NSAIDs may delay tissue healing if used long-term; short-term use is generally safe.

Mackey discusses the synergy, noting that 1+1=3. He mentions the historical concern that NSAIDs might impair healing, referencing orthopedic data on nonunion after joint replacements, but argues that if the pain is limiting function, the benefits of taking NSAIDs to enable movement outweigh the potential risks. He also notes individual variability in response to different NSAIDs; for him, naproxen 500 mg BID works better than ibuprofen, while Peter prefers ibuprofen for its TID dosing alignment with acetaminophen. He advises patients to try different NSAIDs empirically. He also touches on the Vioxx controversy, lamenting its removal despite being a great drug for many, and the need for a black box warning rather than withdrawal.

Mechanism

Ibuprofen inhibits cyclooxygenase (COX) enzymes, reducing prostaglandin synthesis and inflammation. Acetaminophen's mechanism is not fully understood but likely involves central COX inhibition and possibly serotonergic pathways. Together they provide additive analgesia.

Personal experience

Naperson works beautifully for me at 500 twice a day. Ibuprofen not so good.

there's a nice synergy with acetaminophen and ibuprofen because different mechanism of action different organ systems are impacted so you can take less of each when you combine them.

Also said
“the one plus one is not two but three.”— Quantifies synergy.
“if it's perhaps something minor and they can get by without the NSAID and it's not going to change significantly their level of function, then maybe not taking it will improve healing. They can't get out of bed, they can't go to work, but an naperson helps them to do that thing ... then heck yes.”— Practical risk-benefit.

Cluster Headache Abortive Protocol

WhatAt the first sign of a cluster headache (prodrome like sticky eye, appetite change), inhale high-flow oxygen and/or take a triptan.
WhenImmediately at prodrome or onset of attack.
DoseHigh-flow oxygen (typically 12-15 L/min via non-rebreather mask) until pain subsides; triptan as prescribed (e.g., sumatriptan injection or nasal spray).
For whomIndividuals diagnosed with cluster headaches.
WhyOxygen can abort the attack if used early; triptans are effective for cluster headaches.
CaveatsRequires a prescription for oxygen and triptans; triptans have cardiovascular contraindications. Oxygen must be available (tank at home, car).

Mackey shares his personal protocol for managing his own cluster headaches, which occur every 2-3 years in a fall/spring cycle. He describes the prodromal phase with appetite changes, sleep disruption, and a sticky eye sensation. He keeps a tank of oxygen in his car and stockpiles triptans. If he catches the attack early, he can abort it in about 30 minutes instead of enduring hours of agony. He emphasizes that this preparedness and knowledge gave him control, reducing the fear and catastrophizing that previously amplified his suffering. He parallels this with the importance of self-efficacy for all pain patients.

Mechanism

Oxygen is thought to constrict cerebral blood vessels and inhibit trigeminal nerve activation; triptans are 5-HT1B/1D agonists that reduce neurogenic inflammation and vasodilation.

Personal experience

So I threw a tank of oxygen in the back of the car and showed and that'll rescue it. Now if I can get it in time, if you can abort these things in time, you can save yourself several hours of absolute agony

I have stockpiles of you know tripans uh high flow oxygen.

Also said
“I knew I was getting one of these before these happen I get this prodal phase with weird appetite sleep gets disrupted I know and a sticky eye sensation.”— Early warning signs.

Diagnostic Nerve Block Series for Severe Chronic Pain

WhatPerform a series of fluoroscopically guided injections of local anesthetic and steroid at multiple spinal levels (facet joints, nerve roots, dorsal root ganglia) to break the pain cycle.
WhenWhen severe chronic pain prevents any rehabilitation and other measures have failed; often done in a single extensive session.
DoseMultiple injections in one procedure; repeated with increasing precision over months.
For whomPatients with intractable chronic radicular pain or facet arthropathy who are stuck in a pain-rehabilitation paradox.
WhyTemporarily blocks all nociceptive input from the affected region, providing a window of pain relief to initiate physical therapy and break the catastrophizing cycle.
CaveatsRequires specialized expertise; risks include infection, bleeding, nerve injury, and steroid side effects. Not a cure; must be followed by aggressive rehab. Typically done without sedation if patient can tolerate.

Mackey recounts the case of Peter Attia, who was bedridden with severe testicular/groin pain after multiple back surgeries. After a lidocaine infusion failed, Mackey performed an extensive series of injections from top to bottom of the spine late at night without sedation because Peter was desperate. The procedure provided immediate, complete pain relief for two weeks, allowing Peter to start walking and eventually engage in months of rehabilitation. Over subsequent months, Mackey repeated more targeted injections to isolate the pain generator (T12-L1 facet arthropathy). This approach exemplifies using interventional procedures not as a cure but as a bridge to functional recovery. Mackey notes that normally he would not do such a non-specific procedure, but the extreme situation warranted it.

Mechanism

Local anesthetic (e.g., bupivacaine) blocks sodium channels, stopping action potentials; steroid (e.g., hydrocortisone) reduces inflammation around nerve roots.

Personal experience

I remember you just being an extremist and we had to do something to help you. ... normally to be clear to the audience, I would never approach that in a chronic situation like that. Uh, it lacks all specificity. You can't learn anything from it.

the only thing left to do at this point is to go in there and do a series of injections at every single facet joint, every single dorsal root, uh every nerve root, every dorsal root ganglia, the entire length of your spine.

Also said
“two hours later I stood up for the first time in 3 months. I was completely pain-free.”— Dramatic outcome (Peter's words, but Sean confirms).
“these injections allowed me to go and do rehab, which I took on like a vengeance.”— Illustrates the bridge to rehab.

TENS Unit Trial for Nociceptive Pain

WhatApply a TENS unit over the painful area, using electrical stimulation to activate A-beta fibers and reduce pain via gate control.
WhenAs needed for nociceptive musculoskeletal pain; trial for a few days to see if effective.
DoseAdjust intensity to comfortable tingling; use for 20-30 minutes several times a day.
For whomPatients with localized nociceptive pain (e.g., back pain, joint pain) where gate control modulation may help.
WhyActivates fast-conducting A-beta touch fibers, which inhibit nociceptive C and A-delta fiber input in the spinal cord.
CaveatsVariable efficacy; not effective for neuropathic pain. Trial and error.

Mackey explains the gate control theory and how TENS exploits it. He notes that it's a form of neuromodulation patients can do at home. He cannot predict who will respond, but it's safe and worth trying for nociceptive pain. He mentions that acupuncture may work similarly by stimulating peripheral nerves. He uses TENS as part of a multimodal approach, not as a standalone cure.

Mechanism

According to gate control theory, A-beta fibers synapse on inhibitory interneurons in the dorsal horn, which then suppress transmission of nociceptive signals to the brain. TENS artificially activates these fibers, mimicking the effect of rubbing a hurt area.

TENS is TENS, transcutaneous electrical neural stimulation. ... when you turn on the uh you what you do with the TENS ... you put an electrical stimulation through these pads. They're activating a beta fibers. ... it's having a neurom modulatory effect back in the bra in the spinal cord. Pretty cool when it works.

Also said
“you're doing your own neurom modulation with that. And we're all hardwired to do that thing.”— Connects to natural rubbing behavior.

What's new

Personal practice updates, fresh positions, predictions

5 items

biopsychosocial-model-shift

Pain is now understood as an integrated biopsychosocial phenomenon, replacing Descartes' dualistic model that separated body and mind.

Why this matters: This shift is foundational to modern pain treatment, yet the old model still influences medical care and stigmatizes patients without obvious peripheral pathology.

Background

For centuries, pain was seen as a direct line from injury to brain, with the mind as a passive receiver. This led to dismissing chronic pain without visible tissue damage.

Sean Mackey argues that Descartes' 17th-century dualistic model, while the first mechanistic framework, was completely wrong and has persisted for hundreds of years, influencing medical care, policy, and societal attitudes. He explains that only in recent decades have we appreciated that pain is a complex integration of biological, psychological, and social factors. This new understanding explains why two people with identical injuries can have vastly different pain experiences, and why factors like early life trauma, depression, and social isolation profoundly affect pain. He notes that even today, many surgeons still implicitly hold the dualistic view, but there is growing acceptance of the biopsychosocial model, which is crucial for validating patients with conditions like fibromyalgia.

This biomemed model, this dualistic model was with us for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. And it's only been in the last number of decades that we've appreciated the nuance of what pain really is. And instead of it being under this guise of this separate mind and body, we now appreciate it is this integrated biocschosocial phenomenon.

Also said
“I would argue is with us today. And it has influenced medical care. It has influenced policy. It's influenced everything in our society about the way we think about pain and it's utterly completely wrong.”— Emphasizes the enduring harm of the old model.
“what people bring to the operating room table directly influences how much pain they have like their early life experiences all this stuff”— Connects the model to clinical practice.

low-dose-naltrexone-home-run

Low-dose naltrexone (LDN) at 4.5 mg is a remarkably safe, inexpensive drug that can produce dramatic improvements in chronic pain and possibly neuroinflammatory conditions.

Why this matters: LDN is an off-patent drug with no pharmaceutical backing, yet Sean Mackey reports it as one of his most promising tools, with anecdotal home runs in fibromyalgia, CRPS, and even stroke recovery.

Background

Naltrexone at 50 mg is an opioid antagonist used for addiction. At 1/10th the dose, it appears to have a different mechanism—blocking TLR4 on microglia, reducing neuroinflammation.

Mackey describes how animal studies by Linda Watkins and Mark Hutchinson showed LDN blocks toll-like receptor 4 on microglia, the immune cells of the central nervous system. In chronic pain states, microglia become activated and release inflammatory mediators that sensitize pain pathways; LDN may turn off this neuroinflammatory switch. He has used it successfully in fibromyalgia, complex regional pain syndrome, and shares a remarkable case of a stroke patient with central pain who not only had pain relief but regained speech after years. He acknowledges controversy: some researchers believe LDN works by resetting the endogenous opioid system rather than via microglia. Regardless, he emphasizes its safety—decades of data at 10x the dose show no lethal dose, and side effects are limited to vivid dreams in 20-30% of patients. It costs about $30/month from compounding pharmacies. He now uses it more and more as a first-line adjunct.

Personal experience

I use more and more and more because of its safety profile and its potential for getting me a home run. ... I trial him on four and a half milligrams of LDN. He goes away. He comes back a couple months later. Pain has improved. But not only that, he's now speaking and throwing a few words together for the first time in like since stroke.

it's one that I use more and more and more because of its safety profile and its potential for getting me a home run.

Also said
“In some patients, Peter, this drug's been magical. Like magical.”— Conveys the dramatic efficacy he observes.
“the only side effects that I've typically I see 20 30% of people get vivid dreams they get technicolor dreams not bad dreams”— Details the benign side effect profile.
“It usually runs about $30 a month. So it's basically a free drug.”— Highlights affordability.

nociplastic-pain-skepticism

The newly introduced category of 'nociplastic pain'—pain from central processing dysfunction—may be a placeholder for yet-undiscovered peripheral drivers, especially in fibromyalgia.

Why this matters: Mackey expresses skepticism that nociplastic pain is a distinct entity, predicting that many cases will eventually be linked to small fiber neuropathy or other peripheral causes.

Background

Pain has traditionally been classified as nociceptive (tissue injury), neuropathic (nerve injury), or 'other.' Nociplastic pain was recently proposed to describe conditions like fibromyalgia where no clear peripheral cause is found.

Mackey explains that nociplastic pain is thought to represent dysfunction in the central pain processing system, leading to amplified pain without identifiable peripheral pathology. However, he personally believes that medical science hasn't caught up to identify specific peripheral drivers. He points to controversy over whether fibromyalgia is actually a small fiber neuropathy, as some skin biopsies show C-fiber abnormalities. He suggests that as diagnostic tools improve, many 'nociplastic' conditions will be reclassified. This matters because it influences treatment strategies—if a peripheral driver exists, targeting it could be more effective than purely central approaches.

I'm of the opinion it's that latter. like I think we're gonna find peripheral drivers for fibromyalgia.

Also said
“nos plastic pain and it has been tied in with conditions like fibromyalgia, temporalmandibular disorders, uh some aspects of chronic low back pain, uh irritable bowel syndrome, interstitial cyitis, uh and more.”— Lists the conditions currently lumped into nociplastic pain.
“just because we may not be able to identify a lesion doesn't mean that there's not something there.”— Articulates his rationale for skepticism.

self-loathing-predicts-opioid-persistence

Among depressed patients, a specific factor—self-loathing—strongly predicts persistent opioid use after surgery, more than other depressive symptoms like anhedonia.

Why this matters: This finding from Mackey's research offers a granular psychological predictor that could inform preoperative risk stratification and shared decision-making.

Background

It's known that preoperative depression and anxiety increase the risk of chronic pain and opioid misuse, but the specific components driving that risk were unclear.

Mackey describes a study led by Jennifer Hah and Ian Carroll that used the Beck Depression Inventory in preoperative patients. Factor analysis revealed that the self-loathing component—feeling bad about oneself—was the primary driver of persistent opioid use, not other aspects like anhedonia or cognitive symptoms. He cautions that this is from an observational study and ideally would be tested in a randomized trial, but such trials are unlikely to be funded given the current focus on non-opioid alternatives. He uses this insight to have informed conversations with patients about their individual risk, rather than denying opioids outright. The broader message is that psychological factors are neurobiological—they reflect specific brain circuits that modulate pain and reward.

what we found is there was a particular factor that drove almost entirely that prediction of depression self-loathing it was feeling like really bad about your so if you have someone who just suffers from not that anidonia is anything but unpleasant. But if they're only experiencing anidonia but no self-loathing, you would say, well, the risk isn't as high.

Also said
“higher depression scores pre-operatively predicted much more likelihood of persistent opioid use after surgery.”— States the general finding.
“we need to better understand what is the long-term effectiveness and safety of prescribing opioids to people with chronic pain. Meaning, we need to figure out for whom opioids work.”— Contextualizes the need for precision.

self-efficacy-cluster-headaches

Learning everything about his own cluster headaches and having abortive tools gave Mackey control, reducing fear and catastrophizing even though pain intensity didn't change.

Why this matters: It's a powerful personal example of how knowledge and self-efficacy can transform the experience of chronic pain, a principle he now teaches patients.

Background

Cluster headaches are excruciating, rare headaches with autonomic symptoms. Mackey suffered for years without a diagnosis, fearing a brain tumor.

Mackey recounts his journey from undiagnosed agony to becoming an expert on his condition. Once he understood the diagnosis, the typical cycle, and had abortive treatments (high-flow oxygen, triptans), the fear dissipated. He still experienced the same sensory pain and agitation, but knowing it would end and having a plan gave him a sense of control. This self-efficacy broke the catastrophizing loop—rumination, helplessness, amplification—that worsens pain via prefrontal cortex dysfunction and HPA axis dysregulation. He parallels this with Peter Attia's back pain recovery, where understanding the waxing/waning nature and having rehab tools allowed Peter to avoid spiraling after setbacks. Mackey emphasizes that this is a teachable skill: patients can learn about their condition and develop coping strategies to regain control.

Personal experience

I suffer from cluster headaches and all my life as far as I can remember I would get these headaches. It was like a bomb going off in my brain. ... I learned every damn thing I can learn about cluster headaches. ... It didn't change the sensory dimensions of the pain. It didn't change the agitation, but I knew even if I didn't catch it, it was going away in a couple hours. And that gives you control.

It didn't change the sensory dimensions of the pain. It didn't change the agitation, but I knew even if I didn't catch it, it was going away in a couple hours. And that gives you control.

Also said
“I was scared every time these came on. I I thought I had a brain tumor. I was convinced. And I I thought this was going to kill me.”— Shows the initial catastrophizing.
“when I got these attacks, when I knew what they were, I no longer had a huge amount of fear that would further amplify things.”— Highlights the transformation.

Recommendations

Products, supplements, and tools mentioned in the episode

5 items

Belmar Pharmacy (Compounding Pharmacy for LDN)

Service

For obtaining low-dose naltrexone, Mackey recommends Belmar Pharmacy in Colorado, a compounding pharmacy that ships nationwide, charges about $30/month, and has good customer service.

Mackey explains that LDN requires compounding because it's not commercially available in 4.5 mg tablets. He has no financial relationship with Belmar but has found them reliable. They take credit cards over the phone and ship promptly. He notes that insurance usually doesn't cover LDN because it's considered experimental, but at $1/day it's affordable.

vs alternatives

Other local compounding pharmacies may also provide LDN, but Belmar is his go-to for reliability and ease.

Personal experience

we get our stuff out of Balmar Pharmacy in Colorado. Why? They're a compounding pharmacy. They've got all the certifications. ... they've got good customer service. They take patients credit cards over the phone and they will ship it to you immediately

I have no relationship to, but we get our stuff out of Balmar Pharmacy in Colorado.

Also said
“It usually runs about $30 a month. So it's basically a free drug.”— Cost.
Find Belmar

TENS Unit

Tool

A transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation device can be used at home for nociceptive musculoskeletal pain, leveraging gate control theory.

Mackey describes how TENS activates A-beta fibers to inhibit pain signals in the spinal cord. He suggests it as a trial for patients with nociceptive pain, though response is variable. It is safe and non-pharmacological.

vs alternatives

Compared to medications, TENS has no systemic side effects but may be less predictably effective.

TENS is TENS, transcutaneous electrical neural stimulation. ... Pretty cool when it works.

Find TENS

Acupuncture

Practice

Acupuncture may be worth trying for back pain, migraines, and musculoskeletal pain if you can afford it, as it is relatively safe.

Mackey acknowledges the mechanism is not fully understood—possibly involving adenosine release and brain modulation—and that he cannot predict responders. He notes that Medicare now covers it more often, but commercial insurance may not. He advises ensuring the practitioner uses proper hygiene. He distinguishes it from dry needling/trigger point injections.

vs alternatives

Compared to sham acupuncture, real acupuncture shows some benefit in studies, but placebo effects are strong.

my view of acupuncture as a mo as a treatment, as a modality is if you can afford the wallet biopsy and it doesn't cause you problems, then give it a try.

Also said
“I've had some successes in back pain, muscularkeeletal pain, migraines, headaches, oddly.”— Conditions where he's seen benefit.
Find Acupuncture

Outlive by Peter Attia

Book

Mackey references Peter Attia's book multiple times, praising its comprehensive approach to healthspan, including sleep, exercise, and emotional health, which are all relevant to pain management.

Mackey notes that the book covers many of the factors that influence pain, such as sleep, exercise, and social connection. He doesn't explicitly say 'read this book,' but his repeated positive references and the context of the podcast make it a clear endorsement.

all things you talked about beautifully in your book.

Also said
“I think this format is reaching so many people ... we need more Peter Atas we need you like delivering these messages that are empowering people”— Endorses Peter's work broadly.
Find Outlive

Duloxetine (Cymbalta)

Product

An SNRI antidepressant that is FDA-approved for pain, particularly fibromyalgia and neuropathic pain, with a cleaner side effect profile than older TCAs.

Mackey mentions duloxetine as one of the few medications with an FDA indication for pain. It works by inhibiting serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake, enhancing descending pain inhibition. He uses it frequently for fibromyalgia and other chronic pain conditions because it has fewer anticholinergic and sedative effects than TCAs.

vs alternatives

Compared to TCAs, duloxetine has a more favorable side effect profile but may be less effective for some neuropathic pains; it is more expensive but often covered by insurance.

another one like the loxitine which is in the class of anti-depressants but it's a little cleaner fewer side effects it's a serotonin norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor this is actually a drug that got FDA approval for pain and so we go to this a lot

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Notable quotes

Lines worth pulling out — contrarian, specific, or perfectly phrased

6 items
Pain is the great motivator. Pain is one of the most primitive experiences going back to, if you will, single cell organisms. ... pain is so wonderful because it's so terrible. It keeps us alive.
Reframes pain as an essential survival mechanism, not just a symptom.
I am not pro- opioid. I am not anti-opioid. I am propatient.
Succinctly captures his balanced, patient-centered approach to a polarizing topic.
The amount of stimulus or no sception may have little to nothing to do with your experience of pain.
The core message of the biopsychosocial model, challenging the intuitive link between injury and pain.
I've never hit a point in my career with a patient where I've ever said, 'We're done.' Like I got nothing.
Demonstrates his relentless optimism and commitment to finding solutions.
It didn't change the sensory dimensions of the pain. It didn't change the agitation, but I knew even if I didn't catch it, it was going away in a couple hours. And that gives you control.
Powerful personal testament to the role of self-efficacy in transforming the pain experience.
We spend over half a trillion dollars a year in chronic pain. ... It's more than diabetes, heart disease, and cancer combined.
Staggering statistic that underscores the societal impact of chronic pain.

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Topics covered

pain-definitionnociception-vs-painbiopsychosocial-modelpain-typesfibromyalgialow-dose-naltrexoneopioid-crisisnsaidsgabapentintricyclic-antidepressantsmuscle-relaxantsacupuncturecannabischronic-pain-burdenself-efficacycluster-headachespain-measurementgate-control-theoryconditioned-pain-modulationcatastrophizing
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Educational summary of the cited expert source — not medical advice. Open the source recording linked above and consult a qualified physician before acting on any protocol.