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Episode
The Uncomfortable Science Of Sex Differences - Steve Stewart-Williams
~199 min
Episode Brief·YouTube

The Uncomfortable Science Of Sex Differences - Steve Stewart-Williams

Chris Williamson
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TL;DR

The four things you'd lose by not watching

4 items

TL;DR

The four things you'd lose by not watching

4 items
1

Sex is defined universally by gamete size—males produce small gametes (sperm), females large (eggs)—creating a binary that underlies all sex differences across sexually reproducing species.

2

The single largest psychological sex difference is not aggression or risk-taking but which sex each sex is primarily attracted to, a fact often neglected even by scientists.

3

Parental investment is the key driver of evolved sex differences: males’ lower minimal investment leads to greater reproductive variance, selecting for traits like competitiveness, risk-taking, and interest in casual sex, though humans’ biparental care dampens these effects.

4

Both exaggerating and denying sex differences cause harm—exaggeration pushes people into rigid gender roles, while denial leads to overlooking sex-specific health issues, misattributing occupational gaps to discrimination, and creating resentment; Steve’s philosophy is ‘let people be themselves.’

Protocols

Concrete recipes — what, when, how much, and why

3 items

Guidelines for discussing sex differences responsibly

WhatWhen communicating about sex differences, always explicitly state that most gaps are modest, there is huge within-sex variation and overlap, and no normative implications follow from evolutionary origins.
WhenWhenever presenting findings on sex differences in public or academic settings.
DoseEvery time the topic is raised.
For whomAnyone discussing sex differences, from podcasters to researchers.
WhyTo prevent misunderstandings that evolutionary explanations excuse bad behavior or justify traditional roles, and to address legitimate concerns about the history of sexism in science.
CaveatsNone given; this is a communication best practice, not a empirical claim.

Steve argues that because of the long, sorted history of sexist science (e.g., 19th-century claims that intelligent women are as rare as two-headed gorillas), it's understandable that people are nervous about evolved sex differences. However, he believes the science disproves old sexist ideas and that we can treat people well even if men and women differ on average. He advocates a careful approach: emphasize that most psychological sex differences are small (Cohen’s d often 0.2–0.5), that there is always massive overlap, and that no 'is' implies an 'ought.' This protocol is his way to bridge the gap between legitimate concerns and scientific honesty. He does not want to minimize the differences, but to contextualize them to avoid the twin dangers of moralizing and denial. He also adds his personal philosophy: 'let people be themselves,' meaning we should neither push people into nor out of traditional roles.

Personal experience

I think it's right to worry that people might assume that it does, falsely assume that it does. So, I do think when we discuss these issues, we should take into account the concerns that people have about this whole topic of sex differences. And we should discuss them carefully. And we should always emphasize that most of the gaps are not huge... that there's a huge amount of variation within both sexes, tons of overlap between the sexes. And also that there's no normative implications.

We should discuss them carefully and we should always emphasize that most of the gaps are not huge... that there's a huge amount of variation within both sexes, tons of overlap between the sexes. And also that there's no normative implications... because something is evolved, because something is natural, that that therefore means it's good or even permissible—it's up to us to decide that.

Also said
“My basic philosophy I think I can summarize in just four words: let people be themselves.”— Encapsulates the ultimate ethical stance.

Approach to interpreting gender gaps in society

WhatWhen analyzing occupational or social gender gaps, investigate both bias/barriers and genuine preference differences; avoid assuming gaps are solely due to discrimination.
WhenWhen designing interventions or making policy decisions about gender disparities.
DoseOngoing in research and policy work.
For whomPolicy makers, HR professionals, social scientists.
WhyIf we attribute all gaps to discrimination, we create unnecessary resentment, waste resources on ineffective interventions, and may inadvertently discriminate against the group that is overrepresented in certain roles, leading to backlash.
CaveatsAcknowledges that discrimination does exist and should be eliminated; this is about avoiding over-attribution.

Steve warns that the soft bigotry of male expectations—treating male-typical traits as the standard—leads to viewing any underrepresentation of women in certain fields as evidence of discrimination. He argues we must consider that the people vs. things interest difference (d ≈ 1.0) is large, consistent across cultures, and resistant to socialization efforts. If we ignore this, we will implement costly interventions that fail, then progressively coerce outcomes, potentially discriminating against men and creating backlash. He advocates telling people all the facts and then respecting their choices, removing bias but not engineering equal outcomes.

If we say any kind of gaps that you see are products of discrimination, first of all, it's going to create unnecessary resentment because you're going to say, 'Look at these gaps, that's because of men mistreating women.' Second, it's going to lead to costly interventions to try to eliminate the gaps, and those interventions probably not going to work because they're targeting things that are not the primary causes... Then what happens is... we start doing more and more coercive things... and end up reversing the direction of discrimination, which is just adding to the sum total of injustices.

Also said
“Tell people all the facts. Try to get rid of bias and barriers. But then, having done that, respect people's choices about their own lives and how they want to live them and what careers they want to do.”— Provides the positive alternative approach.

Let people be themselves philosophy

WhatAdopt a stance of moral neutrality toward evolved sex differences: neither enforce traditional roles nor push people out of them; individual choice is paramount.
WhenIn all personal and policy decisions about gender.
DoseA continuous mindset.
For whomEveryone—parents, educators, policymakers, individuals.
WhyEvolutionary origins do not dictate what is good; traits are morally neutral. Forcing people into or out of roles creates suffering. Instead, remove barriers and let preferences manifest naturally.
CaveatsThis does not mean tolerating harmful behavior (e.g., violence) even if it has evolutionary roots; those behaviors should be reduced regardless of sex.

Steve repeats this phrase as his core philosophy. He contrasts it with two extremes: one that moralizes differences to justify traditional gender roles, and one that denies differences and tries to enforce a unisex ideal. Both, he says, are straightjackets. By letting people be themselves, we honor variation and avoid the harms of both exaggeration and denial. He notes that because differences are moderate and there is huge overlap, there will always be individuals who don’t fit the average, and that’s fine. This principle also underlies his advice on communicating about differences—it’s about providing information and then stepping back.

Personal experience

My basic philosophy... let people be themselves. So, if they fit traditional gender roles and expectations, that's great. But if they don't, that's great as well. It doesn't matter.

My basic philosophy I think I can summarize in just four words: let people be themselves.

Also said
“The fact that something has evolutionary origin doesn't necessarily mean that it's good. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad, either. I think that it's morally neutral and that it's up to us to decide whether it's good or bad.”— Explains the moral neutrality behind the philosophy.

What's new

Personal practice updates, fresh positions, predictions

5 items

The most overlooked psychological sex difference: sexual orientation

00:34:00

The largest psychological sex difference is that the vast majority of men are primarily attracted to women and women to men, yet it is routinely omitted from summaries of sex differences.

Why this matters: It is so obvious that scientists and the public often miss it, but it is both massive and has a clear evolutionary rationale—without it we wouldn't be here.

Background

Most discussions of sex differences focus on aggression, risk-taking, or occupational preferences, ignoring the most fundamental reproductive orientation that structures mating.

Steve points out that this difference is gigantic—essentially all men are attracted to women and all women to men, with very few exceptions. He notes that even in academic papers on evolved sex differences, this one is often neglected. The reason might be its obviousness: people don’t think to list it because it seems too obvious. Yet the effect size is enormous, and the evolutionary explanation (it takes one male and one female to produce offspring) is straightforward. He argues that if you ask people to guess the biggest psychological sex difference, almost no one names this, and when revealed, they realize its magnitude. He contrasts this with other sex differences, which are often modest, to highlight how this one is off-scale. The oversight shows how even researchers can miss what’s right in front of them because they’re looking for more controversial or politically charged differences.

The single biggest psychological sex difference between men and women? ... It's the sex difference in which sex each sex is primarily attracted to. So, men—the vast majority of men—are primarily attracted to women, the vast majority of women primarily attracted to men. And when I say it, it's obvious, right? It's so obvious that it's a big sex difference, but it's curious, people don't think of it. Even scientists often don't think about it.

Also said
“I've read a bunch of papers that summarize evolved sex differences, and they don't tend to mention that one. They often neglect to mention that very, very large one, but also that one that has quite a clear evolutionary rationale.”— Shows the academic blindspot.

The gender equality paradox was surprising even to evolutionary psychologists

00:25:00

In more gender-equal societies, many psychological sex differences are larger, not smaller, a finding that surprised evolutionists as much as social role theorists.

Why this matters: Contradicts both social role theory and the initial assumption that patriarchy would widen differences; suggests innate factors are expressed more freely when constraints are removed.

Background

Social role theory predicted that stricter gender roles in patriarchal societies would amplify sex differences. The opposite finding—larger differences in egalitarian nations—challenged that view.

Steve explains that the gender equality paradox is the deeply counterintuitive finding that in nations with greater gender equality and less strict gender roles, many sex differences (e.g., in personality, career interests, even some cognitive abilities and physical traits like height) are actually larger. He originally assumed, even from an evolutionary perspective, that patriarchal environments would pry the sexes further apart. The discovery that the reverse happens was a genuine surprise to him. He notes a rebuttal from social-role advocates: in patriarchal societies, men and women are more segregated, so they compare themselves only to their own sex on self-report measures, making differences appear smaller. However, this doesn’t explain why the pattern also appears for non-self-report traits like spatial ability and height. Steve remains open-minded but emphasizes that the paradox undermines simplistic socialization accounts and suggests that when people are freer to choose their paths, inherent differences in interests and preferences can manifest more strongly.

Personal experience

I was actually very surprised that it doesn't and that it does the reverse. I thought that in more patriarchal societies, even given that there's an innate push towards certain sex differences, I still thought that patriarchy and stricter sex roles would pry the sexes apart even more.

The gender equality paradox is the deeply counterintuitive finding, an incredibly fascinating finding, that often it goes the other way—that actually in more gender equal societies, societies that are less strict in terms of the gender roles, and societies that are less patriarchal, you actually find larger sex differences often rather than smaller ones.

Also said
“It doesn't just apply to self-report things like personality. You also find it for some cognitive abilities. I think spatial ability, for instance, you find it. You find it as well for physical traits like height.”— Addresses a common rebuttal that the paradox is an artefact of self-report.

Humans are more bird-like than mammal-like in mating system

00:42:00

While most mammals have deadbeat dads, about 90% of birds form pair bonds and provide biparental care, and humans closely resemble birds, not typical mammals, in this core reproductive pattern.

Why this matters: Reframes human uniqueness and underscores why sex differences in our species are muted compared to most mammals.

Background

Standard narratives often cast humans as typical mammals with high male promiscuity, but the data on pair-bonding and paternal investment place us with birds, which is seldom discussed.

Steve notes that among mammals, only about 5–10% of species form pair bonds with biparental care, while around 90% of bird species do. Humans fall squarely in the bird-like camp: we tend to form relatively durable pair bonds, fall in love, and both parents (not just females) invest heavily in offspring. This has major implications for sex differences. Because males invest, the ceiling on male reproductive output is lowered, which dampens the reproductive variance that drives many sex differences. That is why human sex differences in aggression, sociosexuality, and parenting are present but more moderate than in, say, elephant seals. He finds it amusing that in our primary reproductive arrangement, we are more like the average bird than the average mammal, and jokingly concludes that this makes us more like dinosaurs. This insight helps explain why many stereotypes about male sexual behavior, while having a kernel of truth, are not as extreme in humans as in many other species.

In our primary reproductive behavior, humans are more like the average bird than like the average mammal... we have high levels of the tendency to pair bond, fall in love and form relatively durable pair bonds, and for both sexes rather than just the females to invest in the young... That's found in maybe 5 to 10% at the most of mammals.

Also said
“We're the weirdos. We're so used to males being bigger than females, but actually mammals and other large vertebrates, we're the exception to the rule.”— Adds that the human pattern of male size and behavior is not the default in the animal kingdom.

The 40% male vs 80% female ancestral reproduction figure is likely overstated

00:40:00

Contrary to the widely cited claim that only 40% of males and 80% of females reproduced in our evolutionary past, Steve argues the reproductive skew is smaller due to high male investment.

Why this matters: Challenges a popular meme used to explain male competitiveness and risk-taking, suggesting a more nuanced, less extreme evolutionary story.

Background

A common statistic in evolutionary psychology textbooks holds that many more females than males reproduced, driving intense male-male competition. Steve has come to doubt that number.

Steve acknowledges hearing the 40/80 figure but believes the reproductive skew in humans is quite a bit lower than in most mammals. His reasoning: males in our species typically invest a lot in offspring through provisioning and protection, not just the sex act. High biparental care reduces the maximum offspring number for males relative to females, narrowing the reproductive variance. Therefore, while some reproductive skew existed, it was not as extreme as often portrayed. He declines to give a precise alternative number but is confident the classic figure is inflated. This matters because if the skew was smaller, then the selection pressure for hyper-competitive male traits would be correspondingly weaker, aligning with the observed moderate sex differences in humans compared to highly dimorphic species.

Personal experience

I have heard that number bandied about. I actually think that probably in our species, my guess is that it's not that big... I think males in our species very often invest quite a lot in the young. So, it's not just the sex act. They often help out with the young as well. And so, we have high levels of biparental care. That reduces the maximum offspring number for males relative to females.

I think it's a small one. I think it's smaller and I think because males in our species very often invest quite a lot in the young... So, we have high levels of biparental care in our species. That reduces the maximum offspring number for males relative to females and brings it down, brings it closer to what we have for females.

Also said
“There's also other evidence suggesting that the reproductive skew in our species is quite a bit lower than you find in most mammals.”— Adds that multiple lines of evidence point to lower skew.

Equality is not an inherent good; reducing male violence is the goal, not equalizing violence between sexes

01:20:00

Closing the sex gap in violence by raising female violence would make society worse, showing that equality per se is not the right metric.

Why this matters: A contrarian stance that reframes the debate on closing gender gaps—some differences are worth preserving or reducing in a specific direction only.

Background

Many public discussions assume all sex differences are bad and must be eliminated. Steve challenges this by focusing on the underlying good or bad of the trait, not the gap.

Steve uses the example of aggression: men commit over 90% of homicides. One way to close that gap would be to reduce male violence; another would be to increase female violence. The latter would be disastrous, because violence is the problem, not the difference in violence. Therefore, equality is not an unqualified good. This principle extends to other domains: we should aim to reduce harmful behaviors and remove discriminatory barriers, but not force equal outcomes if they stem from freely chosen preferences. He contrasts this with the soft bigotry of male expectations, where male-typical traits (like risk-taking or career ambition) are taken as the standard, and deviations by women are framed as deficits needing correction. Real fairness, he argues, is letting people be themselves and judging traits by their harm or benefit, not by whether they eliminate a statistical gap.

It's a good example of how equality is not necessarily a good thing in itself. So, men are more aggressive than women. The solution to that is we want to reduce male violence. And in the process, we're going to reduce the size of the sex difference. And that's a very good thing to do, but the reason it's a good thing to do is not because there's anything inherently wrong with the sex difference. It's because violence is bad... Another way to get rid of that sex difference and violence would be to increase the female level of violence. And that would be big thumbs down... equality is not a good thing in itself.

Disclosed sponsorships1speaker disclosed

A Billion Years of Sex Differences

Book Sponsored · disclosed

The book covers the full range of human sex differences from an evolutionary perspective, addressing controversial topics with nuance and evidence.

DisclosureSteve Stewart-Williams is the author of this book.

Throughout the interview, Steve references his book as the source for the six lines of evidence for innate sex differences, the gender equality paradox, and detailed analyses of aggression, mate choice, and personality. He positions it as a comprehensive, careful treatment that acknowledges both the modest size of most differences and their robustness. The book also tackles the harms of both exaggerating and denying differences. He wrote it after years of research, aiming to present the science while addressing legitimate concerns about sexism. It is published and available.

vs alternatives

Unlike many popular books that take an ideological stance, this one strives for balance: emphasizing that most differences are small, overlap is large, and no moral conclusions follow, while still being honest about the data.

Everyone should go and buy it, Billion Years of Sex Differences.

Find A

Notable quotes

Lines worth pulling out — contrarian, specific, or perfectly phrased

5 items
Science is the solution to the early sexism rather than a continuation of it.
Frames evolutionary psychology as a corrective to historical sexist science, not a perpetuation.
My basic philosophy I think I can summarize in just four words: let people be themselves.
Punchy, memorable encapsulation of his ethical stance on sex differences.
In our primary reproductive behavior, humans are more like the average bird than like the average mammal.
Reframes human mating as an outlier relative to mammals, highlighting pair-bonding and biparental care.
Equality is not necessarily a good thing in itself... Another way to get rid of that sex difference in violence would be to increase the female level of violence. And that would be big thumbs down.
A provocative illustration that closing gaps isn't the goal if the trait is harmful.
It's one of the biggest differences and I always find that pretty interesting because the kind of careers that we have today are evolutionarily novel.
Highlights the puzzle of people-vs-things interest despite modern careers being recent.

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Topics covered

sex-differences-controversysex-definition-gametesanisogamy-evolutionnature-vs-nurturesix-lines-of-evidencegender-equality-paradoxparental-investmentbatemans-principlereproductive-variancehuman-mating-system-bird-likelargest-psychological-sex-differencesociosexualityvisual-sexual-stimulimate-preferencessexual-jealousyaggressionheight-preferencessexual-violencestalkingcognitive-abilities
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