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Episode
355 – Skincare strategies, the science of facial aging, and cosmetic-intervention guidance
~233 min
Episode Brief·YouTube

355 – Skincare strategies, the science of facial aging, and cosmetic-intervention guidance

Peter Attia
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TL;DR

The four things you'd lose by not watching

4 items

TL;DR

The four things you'd lose by not watching

4 items
1

Mineral sunscreen (zinc oxide/titanium dioxide) is the single most important daily skincare step; chemical sunscreens degrade quickly and may act as hormone disruptors.

2

Prescription retinoids (tretinoin) are the gold standard for collagen stimulation in your 40s and beyond; start with a fingertip unit nightly, building tolerance over weeks.

3

A stable vitamin C serum applied morning and night provides antioxidant protection, evens skin tone, and supports collagen synthesis—cheap versions degrade and lose bioavailability.

4

For Peter’s under-eye hollows and volume loss, fat grafting or hyaluronic acid fillers can restore youthful contour; a transposition lower blepharoplasty would reposition fat pads and address the lid-cheek junction.

Protocols

Concrete recipes — what, when, how much, and why

5 items

Daily evening skincare routine

WhatCleanse with glycerin-based cleanser, apply vitamin C serum, apply prescription retinoid (retinoic acid for 40s+), optionally apply moisturizer.
WhenEvery night before bed, after brushing teeth.
DoseRetinoid: one fingertip unit (tip of index finger to DIP joint) covering entire face including under-eyes, upper eyelids once weekly, neck once or twice weekly. Vitamin C serum: thin layer.
For whomAdults; retinoid strength tailored to age and tolerance (retinol for 20s, retinaldehyde for 30s-early 40s, retinoic acid for mid-40s+).
WhyNighttime is when skin undergoes autophagy and repair; retinoids boost collagen and elastin production, normalize melanocyte function, and increase keratinocyte turnover; vitamin C replenishes depleted antioxidants and supports repair.
CaveatsStart retinoid 2-3 times per week and build to nightly to avoid irritation. Can mix with OTC 1% hydrocortisone initially. Expect 6-8 weeks for skin to acclimate. Do not stop in summer; continue with sunscreen. Avoid getting retinoid directly in eyes.

Susan explains that peak collagen production occurs at age 18, after which fibroblasts produce less collagen, elastin, and glycosaminoglycans. Retinoids work at the DNA level to upregulate these structural proteins. She notes that early studies showing increased photosensitivity led people to stop retinoids in summer, but after the initial exfoliation phase, the stratum corneum rebuilds and photosensitivity decreases. Retinoids also have DNA repair properties even with sun exposure. Tanish adds that for sensitive patients, mixing with OTC hydrocortisone 1% can reduce initial inflammation. Both agree that consistency is key, and the tube should last about 3 months—if longer, the patient isn't using enough.

Mechanism

Retinoic acid binds to nuclear receptors (RAR/RXR) in keratinocytes, melanocytes, and fibroblasts, regulating gene transcription to increase collagen and elastin production, normalize melanocyte activity (reducing pigmentation), and accelerate epidermal turnover. Vitamin C serves as a cofactor for prolyl hydroxylase in collagen synthesis and scavenges free radicals.

Personal experience

Peter admits he never washes his face before bed and finds retinoid application daunting. Susan suggests placing the retinoid tube next to his toothbrush as a cue. She would start him on 5 days retinaldehyde, 2 days retinoic acid per week.

Right next to your toothbrush, put your little tube of retinoid. That's what I tell my patients.

Also said
“Hold up your finger and it should be from the tip of your index finger to your DIP joint... a fingertip unit of retinoid every night, that's a great way to measure that you're getting enough on.”— Provides a precise, memorable dosing method.
“Make sure you're getting that under eye area. Once a week maybe on the upper eyelid and then once or twice a week on the neck because again this is the thinnest skin.”— Specifies often-missed application areas.

Cystic acne emergency treatment protocol

WhatTreat cystic acne aggressively as a dermatologic emergency to prevent permanent scarring. First-line: oral isotretinoin (Accutane) for 5 months. Alternative: photodynamic therapy with aminolevulinic acid (ALA) and red light.
WhenAs soon as cystic acne is diagnosed, especially in adolescents.
DoseIsotretinoin: 5-month course, dosed by weight; photodynamic therapy: ALA applied and incubated 1 hour, then activated with red light, may require multiple sessions.
For whomPatients with nodulocystic acne, especially those with family history, or inflammatory acne unresponsive to topicals.
WhyCystic acne causes deep dermal inflammation and rupture of sebaceous units, leading to permanent ice-pick or valley scars that cause lifelong psychological distress. Topical treatments and antibiotics are insufficient for cystic acne.
CaveatsIsotretinoin: mandatory pregnancy prevention (two forms of birth control), no alcohol, no blood donation; monitor liver enzymes and lipids; causes dry lips, eyes, skin. Photodynamic therapy: uncomfortable during light activation, not universally available.

Susan emphasizes that acne scarring traumatizes patients for life—she sees 70-year-olds still crying about scars from their teens. She distinguishes comedonal acne (whiteheads/blackheads, don't scar unless picked), inflammatory acne (red pustules, may scar if picked), and cystic acne (deep, rupturing nodules that scar even without picking). She considers cystic acne a 'medical emergency' due to psychological impact. She avoids long-term antibiotics to preserve the gut microbiome. Photodynamic therapy uses ALA to selectively damage overactive sebaceous glands, offering an alternative for those who cannot take isotretinoin. She notes that 85% of patients are cured after one 5-month course; a small subset needs a second course. For adults with oily skin but not active acne, she sometimes prescribes one month per year to reduce oiliness and improve texture.

Mechanism

Isotretinoin is a retinoid that shrinks sebaceous glands, reducing oil production driven by androgens. Photodynamic therapy: ALA is absorbed by sebaceous glands and converted to protoporphyrin IX; red light activation generates reactive oxygen species that selectively destroy the glands.

Personal experience

Susan: 'I cannot tell you how many times I see patients for consults for acne scars. They're in their 70s and they're still crying about it as if it was yesterday.'

Cystic acne is a true, in my standpoint, a medical emergency because you want to treat... it can cause so much psychological trauma to the child.

Also said
“Those patients I would quickly move to Accutane because nothing topical is going to work.”— Emphasizes the necessity of systemic treatment for cystic acne.
“Photodynamic therapy is where you take a molecule like aminolevulinic acid... you paint it on the skin and you let it incubate for about an hour and then you shine a red light onto the skin to activate it... you're basically causing the oil glands to shut down.”— Explains the alternative to isotretinoin.

Fat grafting with PRP and nanofat for facial volume restoration

WhatHarvest fat (typically 120cc from flanks or abdomen), centrifuge, enrich with platelet-rich plasma (PRP) and nanofat (stromal vascular fraction), then inject into areas of facial volume loss (temples, cheeks, under-eyes, jawline).
WhenWhen multiple facial areas need volume restoration; can be repeated as needed over years.
DoseHarvest ~120cc raw fat, inject condensed volume; procedure may be repeated every few years as aging progresses.
For whomPatients with significant multi-area facial volume loss who have adequate donor fat (normal BMI). Not ideal for isolated small-area treatment like lips alone.
WhyAutologous fat provides permanent volume, contains stem cells that can differentiate into bone, fat, or muscle depending on placement site, and improves overlying skin quality. More cost-effective long-term than repeated filler injections for pan-facial volume loss.
CaveatsRequires minor liposuction procedure; some fat resorption occurs (variable take); weight gain after procedure will cause grafted fat to hypertrophy like donor site fat. Risk of vascular occlusion if injected with needles (use cannulas).

Susan explains that fat from the abdomen has the highest concentration of preadipocytes (stem cells), but she prefers flank fat because it contains more stromal/septal tissue, providing a scaffolding that improves graft take. She harvests about 120cc, centrifuges to remove anesthetic fluid, and adds albumin for oncotic pressure. She also spins the patient's blood to obtain PRP and processes additional fat into nanofat (by passing through meshes to break down adipocytes, enriching stem cells). This 'triple cocktail' (fat + PRP + nanofat) increases graft survival. Tanish uses a similar technique learned from Dr. Obaji but typically harvests less volume because he often combines fat grafting with surgical lifts. Both note that fat retains its donor-site metabolic behavior: if a patient gains weight, the grafted facial fat will enlarge like abdominal fat. Susan tells patients not to gain more than a few pounds post-procedure. Fat grafting is preferred over fillers when multiple areas need treatment because the cost of many syringes of filler would exceed the one-time fat grafting cost over time.

Mechanism

Adipose-derived stem cells (preadipocytes) within the stromal vascular fraction can differentiate into adipocytes, osteoblasts, or myocytes depending on the recipient site's microenvironment. PRP provides growth factors (PDGF, TGF-β, VEGF) that enhance angiogenesis and cell survival. Nanofat processing concentrates stem cells by removing mature adipocytes. The stromal tissue from flanks provides a structural matrix that supports cell integration.

Personal experience

Susan: 'I just did a lady yesterday... she came in, she had never had anything before and she was hollow everywhere... we went straight for the fat because she has a thin face, but she has a normal body mass index.'

I do like fat because it's your own living tissue and of course it has those stem cells in it that can become multiple different types of tissue. So if you place it at the periosteal level it can build bone. If you put it in fat it becomes fat and if you put it along muscle it can turn into muscle.

Also said
“When you go to the flanks... they have a lot of septae and stromal tissue there. And when you aspirate the fat, you're also aspirating along with it some of that stromal tissue. So you're getting the matrix and the scaffolding cells that will help that fat also repopulate.”— Explains the rationale for flank as preferred donor site.
“If you take fat and then you add in extra stem cells more of that tissue will take. So what we do is we harvest extra fat and extract the nanofat from that... and adding that back in to supplement the fat.”— Describes the nanofat enrichment technique.

Non-ablative skin resurfacing stacking protocol

WhatCombine non-ablative fractional laser (e.g., Clear + Brilliant) with a light chemical peel in the same session, repeated quarterly, to cumulatively improve skin texture, pigmentation, and fine lines with minimal downtime.
WhenQuarterly treatments; ideal for patients unable to tolerate the downtime of ablative resurfacing.
DoseSingle session: non-ablative laser + light peel; 3-4 days of peeling post-treatment; repeat every 3 months.
For whomPatients with mild to moderate photoaging, especially those with thicker male skin who need more stimulation, or those unwilling to take extended downtime.
WhyStacking two non-ablative modalities synergistically enhances collagen stimulation and epidermal turnover without the 7-10 day recovery of ablative lasers. Cumulative effects approximate a single aggressive treatment over time.
CaveatsResults are gradual and require commitment to multiple sessions. Not as dramatic as a single ablative treatment. Must be performed by an experienced provider who understands laser-tissue interaction.

Susan explains that for someone like Peter (male, thicker skin), a single non-ablative treatment like Clear + Brilliant alone may be insufficient. By adding a light chemical peel immediately after the laser, the combined injury triggers a stronger healing response while still keeping downtime to 3-4 days of peeling. This approach can be repeated quarterly. Tanish notes that the field is confusing because of the proliferation of devices, many with aggressive marketing but limited efficacy. He cautions against ultrasound and radiofrequency-based tightening in patients under 40-45 due to risk of fat atrophy. Both experts emphasize that the choice of resurfacing modality should be customized based on skin type, concern, and downtime tolerance, not driven by brand names or trends.

Mechanism

Non-ablative fractional lasers create microscopic columns of thermal injury in the dermis while sparing the epidermis, stimulating heat shock proteins and a cytokine cascade that upregulates collagen and elastin production. Light chemical peels (e.g., glycolic or salicylic acid) remove the stratum corneum and superficial epidermis, accelerating cell turnover. The combination creates a more robust wound healing response than either alone.

Personal experience

Susan: 'We'll take a clear and brilliant laser and apply a light chemical peel solution on top of that the same day. So two non-ablative therapies... and then you get like three or four days of peeling and then you're done.'

Someone like you, because you're a male, you're thick, you have thicker skin, you need us to push it a little more than just what the clear and brilliant will do or the light peel by itself. But synergistically, they can have a nice effect.

Also said
“Over time, there will be cumulative improvement in your skin, especially if you follow your home regimen.”— Emphasizes the importance of combining in-office treatments with home skincare.

Ablative resurfacing with combination approach

WhatPerform medium-depth TCA peel on most of the face, fractionated ablative CO2 laser on deep perioral lines, and phenol peel on redundant lower eyelid skin—all in one session for maximal rejuvenation.
WhenFor patients with significant photoaging, deep wrinkles, and skin laxity who can tolerate 7-10 days of occlusive dressing and several weeks of redness.
DoseSingle session; downtime: 7-10 days occlusive dressing, 3+ weeks of redness, can use concealer after 3 weeks; repeat every 5-10 years.
For whomPatients with advanced photoaging, deep wrinkles, significant skin laxity, and those willing to undergo extended recovery. Not for higher Fitzpatrick skin types without extensive pre-treatment due to pigmentation risks.
WhyDifferent modalities target different depths and skin concerns optimally. TCA peels reach the papillary dermis (sweet spot for tightening and pore reduction), CO2 laser addresses deep rhytides, and phenol provides the deepest peel for eyelid skin tightening. Combining them in one session maximizes results while the patient is already committed to downtime.
CaveatsMust be performed by an expert; phenol peels can cause cardiac arrhythmias if not monitored; CO2 laser on darker skin types risks permanent hypopigmentation or hyperpigmentation. Pre-treatment with hydroquinone and retinoids may be needed to stabilize melanocytes.

Susan describes her customized approach: she uses a medium-depth TCA peel on the majority of the face because it can be feathered into the hairline, ears, and neck, leaving no untreated borders. TCA percolates into pores, causing them to contract during healing. For deep perioral lines, she uses a fractionated ablative CO2 laser for its precision and depth. For redundant lower eyelid skin (often in patients who decline or have already had blepharoplasty), she applies phenol, which provides a 'mini eye lift' effect that can delay surgery by 2-3 years. Tanish adds that full ablative CO2 laser is the gold standard but can be dialed down in intensity; lighter erbium lasers have faster recovery because they produce less thermal injury. Both note that chemical peels are generally safer for darker skin types because the depth can be controlled differently than lasers, which can permanently damage deeper melanocytes.

Mechanism

TCA (trichloroacetic acid) causes controlled coagulation necrosis to the papillary dermis, stimulating new collagen deposition and dermal remodeling. Phenol penetrates deeper, causing full-thickness epidermal and partial dermal necrosis, leading to significant skin tightening. Ablative CO2 laser vaporizes tissue in columns, creating thermal zones that contract existing collagen and stimulate neocollagenesis over months.

Personal experience

Susan: 'On the same patient, I'll do all three. So on most of their face, I may do a medium-depth TCA peel... Then I may take a patient who has very deep perioral lines and use my fractionated ablative CO2 laser on those. And then someone with redundant skin on the lower eyelids, I may take my phenol peel and apply it there.'

The most effective non-surgical skin interventions are in the category of ablative lasers and phenol peels because they go the deepest.

Also said
“The medium depth peels are going to go just to the level of what's called the papillary dermis, which is the sweet spot for tissue tightening.”— Explains why TCA is chosen for general facial resurfacing.
“A full ablative CO2 laser... is going to have 7 to 10 days of requiring an occlusive dressing... in weeks from weeks one to three, their skin will be transitioning and epithelializing. They'll start to return to normal activities, but they'll still scare children at a grocery store for 3 weeks.”— Realistically describes the downtime commitment.

What's new

Personal practice updates, fresh positions, predictions

1 item

Mineral sunscreen mandate over chemical sunscreens

Early in preventive care discussion

Both experts strongly recommend mineral sunscreens (zinc oxide/titanium dioxide) exclusively, citing chemical sunscreen degradation within an hour, reactive oxygen species generation, and potential hormone disruption.

Why this matters: This is a firm, unified stance against the mainstream chemical sunscreen market, reinforced by recent FDA demands for animal safety studies on chemical UV filters.

Background

Historically, chemical sunscreens gained popularity because they blend invisibly without a white cast. Mineral sunscreens were considered cosmetically inferior. The experts argue that consumer satisfaction drove market dominance of chemical formulas despite inferior protection and safety concerns.

Susan explains that chemical sunscreens like avobenzone and oxybenzone absorb UV rays but generate reactive oxygen species that damage DNA, potentially increasing skin cancer risk. She notes that despite rising sunscreen use since the 1990s, skin cancer rates continue to climb, which she attributes to rapid degradation of chemical filters (within an hour) and the oxidative damage they cause. Tanish adds that the film remains on skin even after protection is lost, giving a false sense of security. Both experts have formulated their own skincare lines and acknowledge that companies intentionally make it confusing, marketing both mineral and chemical options because customer satisfaction is higher with chemical products. Susan mentions that the FDA recently mandated animal safety studies for these chemicals, a move she advocated for 15 years. They recommend SPF 50 mineral as the maximum achievable in a mineral formula.

Personal experience

Peter uses EltaMD SPF 30-50 and is unsure if it's mineral; Susan advises checking because EltaMD makes both types. Tanish and Susan both disclose they have created their own skincare lines, giving them insider knowledge of formulation and marketing practices.

I tell my patients they have to use mineral sunscreens as opposed to chemical sunscreens because I'm not convinced of the safety of avobenzone, oxybenzone as hormone disruptors.

Also said
“When those chemical sunscreens absorb those harmful rays... they cause reactive oxygen species. And those reactive oxygen species damage the DNA of the cells, which then accentuates the damage that you're getting from whatever other UVA gets through the sunscreen.”— Explains the biological mechanism of harm from chemical sunscreens beyond just degradation.
“You put a sunscreen SPF 70 on, go outside and it's going to be... deactivated within an hour. People will burn on SPF 70, SPF 100.”— Quantifies the rapid loss of protection from chemical sunscreens.

Recommendations

Products, supplements, and tools mentioned in the episode

7 items

Mineral sunscreens (zinc oxide/titanium dioxide)

Product

Recommended as the only type of sunscreen to use daily. Avoid chemical sunscreens with avobenzone, oxybenzone. Look for SPF 30-50 mineral formulations. EltaMD makes both mineral and chemical versions—verify label.

Susan and Tanish both strongly advocate for mineral-only sunscreens. They explain that chemical sunscreens degrade within an hour, generate reactive oxygen species that damage DNA, and may act as hormone disruptors. The FDA recently mandated animal safety studies for chemical UV filters. Mineral sunscreens require more effort to blend or cost more for micronized formulations, but provide superior, stable protection. Susan notes that even SPF 70 or 100 chemical sunscreens fail quickly. Tanish adds that the film remains on skin after protection is lost, giving false confidence.

vs alternatives

Chemical sunscreens blend invisibly and have higher customer satisfaction, but degrade rapidly, generate oxidative stress, and may disrupt hormones. Mineral sunscreens leave a white cast but provide stable, physical UV blocking without systemic absorption concerns.

Personal experience

Peter uses EltaMD but is unsure if his is mineral. Susan advises checking because EltaMD makes both types.

I tell my patients they have to use mineral sunscreens as opposed to chemical sunscreens.

Also said
“There should be nothing above SPF 50 mineral because you can't get it into a formula.”— Sets an upper limit for mineral SPF.
Find Mineral

Prescription retinoic acid (tretinoin)

Supplement

Gold standard topical retinoid for mid-40s and older. Available by prescription in 0.025%, 0.05%, 0.1% strengths. Apply one fingertip unit nightly to face, under-eyes, neck. Costs ~$80-100 per 3-month tube.

Susan explains that retinoic acid is the active form that directly binds nuclear receptors to upregulate collagen, elastin, and normalize melanocyte and keratinocyte function. It is the most effective topical for anti-aging but also the most irritating. She recommends starting with lower concentrations and building tolerance over 6-8 weeks. For those who cannot tolerate it, she suggests retinaldehyde as an intermediate. Tanish adds that mixing with OTC 1% hydrocortisone can ease initial irritation. Both emphasize not stopping in summer and always pairing with sunscreen.

vs alternatives

Retinol (OTC) requires two enzymatic conversions and is weaker, suitable for 20s. Retinaldehyde (OTC) requires one conversion, less irritating, suitable for 30s-early 40s. Retinoic acid (Rx) is the most potent, suitable for mid-40s+. Adapalene (OTC) is another retinoid but primarily for acne.

Personal experience

Peter tried tretinoin 10 years ago and quit due to redness. Susan says he was likely on too high a strength and should have used retinaldehyde or a lower concentration.

The gold standard is retinoic acid... someone who's in their mid-40s and up. They're going to need it continuously to keep boosting collagen.

Also said
“If you can afford it, it's better to get the prescription. And I'm guessing retinoic acid is not expensive. It's come back down in price... about $80 to $100 for a tube. That tube will last about three months. If it's lasting longer, you're not putting enough.”— Provides cost and duration guidance.
Find Prescription

Glycerin-based facial cleanser

Product

Use morning and night. Look for non-foaming, glycerin-based formulas that cleanse without stripping natural oils or disrupting the skin microbiome. Avoid body soap or harsh detergents on the face.

Tanish explains that older skincare philosophy promoted stripping oils, but modern science shows this causes inflammation and disrupts the microbiome. Glycerin-based cleansers remove debris and superficial oils without over-drying. Susan adds that the choice depends on skin type—some may need more hydrating formulas. Peter admits he used to clean his face with alcohol pads in the hospital; Susan jokes that was 'a little harsh but there were worse things.' Both will provide specific product links in show notes.

vs alternatives

Foaming cleansers often contain sulfates that strip oils. Bar soaps are too alkaline and disrupt the acid mantle. Alcohol-based cleansers are overly harsh. Glycerin-based non-foaming cleansers preserve the skin barrier.

Personal experience

Peter currently uses a $2.99 Target body wash on his face. Tanish and Susan strongly advise switching to a dedicated facial cleanser.

A modern cleanser that we suggest is usually something that is glycerin based... a way of cleansing the skin without overly stripping the oils out of the skin.

Also said
“Historically there was a belief that you would need to strip all the oil off your face... We now know that that is harmful. It creates inflammation. It disrupts the microbiome of the skin.”— Explains the shift in cleansing philosophy.
Find Glycerin-based

Aquaphor (petroleum jelly) as budget moisturizer

Product

Apply a thin layer as the final step in nighttime routine to lock in moisture and thicken the epidermis. A $6 drugstore product that Tanish guarantees will improve skin appearance in 30 days.

Tanish calls this the 'cheapest trick in skincare.' He explains that occlusive moisturization thickens the skin barrier, reducing the appearance of fine lines and crinkles through hydration alone. He clarifies he's not necessarily recommending everyone sleep with greasy Aquaphor, but the principle of deep overnight moisturization is powerful. Susan notes that as skin matures, natural moisturizing factor production declines, making moisturizers more important, especially for women. She typically recommends moisturizers for women in their mid-40s and 50s, but notes that morning sunscreen and serums often provide some moisturizing effect.

vs alternatives

Aquaphor is pure petrolatum, extremely occlusive and cheap. Dedicated facial moisturizers may contain additional humectants (glycerin, hyaluronic acid), emollients, and anti-aging ingredients but cost more. For minimalists, Aquaphor is effective.

Personal experience

Peter is concerned about greasing up his pillow. Tanish acknowledges this but stands by the efficacy.

You can go to Walgreens and spend $6 on Aquafor, which is basically petroleum jelly, and put it on your face nightly, and your skin will look better in 30 days, guaranteed.

Also said
“Deep moisturization locks down the skin barrier function and allows the skin... dermis epithelium to thicken just by having that occlusive barrier.”— Explains the mechanism of benefit.
Find Aquaphor

Survival of the Prettiest by Nancy Etcoff

Book

Recommended by Tanish as the definitive book on the psychology and evolutionary biology of beauty. He has all his fellows read it.

Tanish references Etcoff's work from Harvard on the psychology of beauty, summarizing that humans are genetically hardwired to appreciate beauty. He mentions the famous Judith Langlois infant preferential looking study from UT Austin in the 1980s, which showed newborns preferentially gaze at faces rated as beautiful, indicating an innate, pre-socialized drive. The book covers evolutionary beauty science including symmetry, proportion, and sexual dimorphism.

Personal experience

Tanish: 'I have all of my fellows read her book because I think it's just a beautiful compendium.'

You could invite Nancy Etcoff from Harvard to come talk to you about the psychology of beauty. She wrote the definitive book on it.

Find Survival

Non-ablative fractional lasers (Clear + Brilliant, Fraxel)

Tool

In-office devices for skin resurfacing with minimal downtime. Clear + Brilliant is superficial; Fraxel has multiple settings. Often combined with light chemical peels for synergistic effect. Quarterly treatments recommended for cumulative improvement.

Susan uses Clear + Brilliant with a light peel for patients like Peter who need more than a single non-ablative treatment but can't tolerate ablative downtime. Tanish notes that the non-ablative category is huge and confusing, with many devices marketed aggressively. He cautions against ultrasound and RF tightening devices in younger patients due to fat atrophy risk. Both emphasize that the provider's expertise in selecting and combining modalities matters more than the specific brand.

vs alternatives

Non-ablative: minimal downtime (3-4 days peeling), subtle results, requires multiple sessions. Ablative (CO2, erbium): 7-10 days downtime, dramatic results, single session. Chemical peels: variable depth, generally safer for darker skin. Microneedling with RF (Morpheus8): semi-ablative, bridges gap.

We'll take a clear and brilliant laser and apply a light chemical peel solution on top of that the same day. So two non-ablative therapies... and then you get like three or four days of peeling and then you're done.

Also said
“The field is so confusing to consumers and honestly even practitioners because it's a gold rush... every company is getting private equity money and getting an FDA approval for some kind of device because they want a piece of the action.”— Contextualizes the overwhelming device landscape.
Find Non-ablative

Photodynamic therapy (PDT) for acne

Practice

Alternative to oral isotretinoin for cystic acne. Aminolevulinic acid (ALA) applied to skin, incubated 1 hour, then activated with red light to destroy sebaceous glands. Requires multiple sessions; uncomfortable during activation.

Susan offers PDT for patients who cannot take isotretinoin due to contraindications or preference. It selectively targets overactive oil glands without systemic side effects. She notes it's not universally available—not every dermatologist offers it. The treatment is uncomfortable during the light activation phase but avoids the 5-month systemic course of Accutane with its required monitoring and pregnancy prevention.

vs alternatives

Isotretinoin: oral, 5-month course, 85% cure rate, systemic side effects, mandatory pregnancy prevention. PDT: topical, no systemic effects, may need multiple sessions, less convenient. Topical retinoids/antibiotics: insufficient for cystic acne. Long-term antibiotics: disrupt gut microbiome.

Photodynamic therapy is where you take a molecule like aminolevulinic acid... you paint it on the skin and you let it incubate for about an hour and then you shine a red light onto the skin to activate it... you're basically causing the oil glands to shut down.

Find Photodynamic
Disclosed sponsorships1speaker disclosed

Stabilized vitamin C serum (L-ascorbic acid)

Product Sponsored · disclosed

Apply morning and night after cleansing, before sunscreen/moisturizer. Look for formulations that ensure bioavailability—microencapsulated, nitrogen-vapor processed, or oil-based. Avoid inexpensive water-based serums that degrade before use.

DisclosureTanish is founder of AAVIA Skincare which includes a vitamin C serum. Susan was formerly affiliated with Obagi (her father founded it) and formulated for their Obagi MD line; she no longer has financial ties to Obagi.

Vitamin C is notoriously unstable and easily oxidized. Tanish explains that inexpensive serums lose bioavailability within months of manufacture. SkinCeuticals uses ferulic acid to stabilize their formula, which creates a characteristic smell that Peter dislikes. Obagi processes theirs under nitrogen vapor for stability without ferulic acid. Tanish's AAVIA uses microencapsulation. Susan emphasizes that topical vitamin C achieves skin concentrations far exceeding oral intake, and it's depleted during the day, necessitating reapplication at night. Both agree it's worth spending more for a stable formulation.

vs alternatives

SkinCeuticals CE Ferulic: ferulic acid-stabilized, effective but odorous. Obagi: nitrogen-vapor stabilized, odorless, claims 4x deeper penetration. AAVIA: microencapsulated with Ayurvedic anti-inflammatories. SkinBetter: another reputable brand. Cheap drugstore vitamin C serums: likely degraded and ineffective.

Personal experience

Peter tried SkinCeuticals CE Ferulic but hated the smell and quit. Susan suggests Obagi as a non-stinky alternative. Tanish offers his own brand.

Vitamin C is a notoriously complicated, easily reduced molecule... the relatively more expensive formulations are being produced by manufacturers that are doing all sorts of manufacturing flips and tricks to try and stabilize that vitamin C.

Also said
“They have a study that shows that their L-ascorbic acid penetrates about four times deeper than the one from SkinCeuticals.”— Susan's claim about Obagi's penetration compared to SkinCeuticals.
“Vitamin C is sort of like a wonder molecule when it comes to facial aesthetics because... it is a precursor for the collagen synthesis pathway... it also is a powerful antioxidant... it also regulates the tyrosinase pathway.”— Summarizes the triple mechanism of vitamin C.
Find Stabilized

Notable quotes

Lines worth pulling out — contrarian, specific, or perfectly phrased

7 items
The absolute minimum thing I should use on my skin every day, it would be sunscreen.
Susan's unequivocal, first-principles answer to the most basic skincare question.
I tell my patients they have to use mineral sunscreens as opposed to chemical sunscreens because I'm not convinced of the safety of avobenzone, oxybenzone as hormone disruptors.
Strong, specific stance against the dominant sunscreen category, citing endocrine disruption concerns.
The companies will tell you that filler only lasts one year in the face and you have to refill it. That's definitely not true.
Direct contradiction of industry marketing from a surgeon who sees the evidence inside patients' faces.
Black don't crack... almost completely what you're saying is the protection value of the increased melanin particles that people with darker skin have.
Succinct, memorable validation of a common cultural observation with biological explanation.
We were not really supposed to be living this long and healthy this long. And so evolutionarily, you know, mother nature is not helping us with our appearance.
Frames the entire field of aesthetic medicine as fighting against evolutionary biology, a perspective that resonates with the longevity theme of the podcast.
You can go to Walgreens and spend $6 on Aquafor, which is basically petroleum jelly, and put it on your face nightly, and your skin will look better in 30 days, guaranteed.
The 'cheapest trick in skincare'—a bold, testable claim that democratizes skincare efficacy.
You have to understand that there's an overlay where the person that you're seeking out advice from has a substantial financial incentive to treat you. And it's I think it's a real issue.
Frank acknowledgment of the inherent conflict of interest in aesthetic medicine, rare for practitioners to state so openly.

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sunscreen-mineral-vs-chemicalretinoids-retinol-retinaldehyde-tretinoinvitamin-c-serum-stabilityfacial-aging-fat-atrophy-bone-lossevolutionary-beauty-symmetry-proportionsocial-media-dysmorphiaoverfilling-fillers-longevityacne-cystic-scarring-treatmentfat-grafting-vs-fillersblepharoplasty-brow-liftchoosing-cosmetic-surgeonnon-ablative-vs-ablative-resurfacingskincare-routine-am-pmcomplications-fillers-vision-lossfive-rs-rejuvenationstress-cortisol-facial-agingtetracycline-malar-moundsphotodynamic-therapy-acneaccutane-isotretinoinchemical-peels-tca-phenol
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Educational summary of the cited expert source — not medical advice. Open the source recording linked above and consult a qualified physician before acting on any protocol.